Tag Archives: Andy Stanley

October 5, 2023

What Andy Stanley Gets Right…. and Wrong… About The LGBTQ+ Conversation

By Clarke Morledge

The Internet is all abuzz about a recent conference at Andy Stanley’s North Point Community Church in Atlanta geared to help parents of LGBTQ+ children navigate through their struggles. Certain conservative Christian leaders, like Southern Baptist Seminary President, Al Mohler, have decried the conference, suggesting that Andy Stanley has parted ways from historic orthodox Christianity. Alternatively, certain progressive Christians have spoken out somewhat in favor of Andy Stanley here, while also indicating that not enough was shown regarding what they see as the moral bankruptcy of continuing to restrict the definition of marriage as being only between one man and one woman for one life.

How does an evangelical Christian respond to all of this?  In defending the Unconditional Conference sponsored by Embracing the Journey, Andy Stanley has got some things right, while also getting some other things wrong.

Megachurch pastor Andy Stanley. Promoter of Biblical truth… or compromiser?

 

What Andy Stanley Gets Right

First, let us consider what Andy Stanley got right. Aside from the confusion experienced by many young people themselves today questioning their sexual and gender identity, the trauma that many Christian parents of such children face, trying to figure out how best to respond and love their children, can be extremely difficult and bewildering. Aside from a few pockets here and there, a long history of full-blown hatred against LGBTQ+ persons is finally starting to disappear, but there are still problems with the emerging, hopefully more-compassionate, less-combative approaches.

Unfortunately, there seems to be two paths currently taken in certain evangelical circles these days. One path might best be called the “stick your head in the sand” approach. Many such Christians simply want the LGBTQ+ discussion to go away. But that simply will not do. The data is not fully in yet, but some suggest that as many as one out of four young people today, growing up in the age of social media, wrestle with either a sense of sexual attraction to the same sex, or experience a sense of discomfort or anxiety about their own gender identity. Do the math. At least one out of five, but perhaps even one out of four. The sheer numbers are staggering. The LGBTQ+ discussion is not going away anytime soon.

The other path is to at first write into a church’s statement of faith or covenant a commitment for membership to only support traditional marriage, between one man and one woman. While this honorable stand for 2000 years of church teaching is taken, the church then sadly provides very little in terms of helping young people work through these questions of sexual and gender identity, as well as not providing sufficient resources for parents and other family members of such young people to work through their questions and struggles.

In this sense, Andy Stanley was right to break out of both the “stick your head in the sand” approach as well as the purely moral posturing approach, which offers little to no practical help. Andy Stanley was right to sponsor a conference intended to offer pastoral help and assistance for parents who want to know what to do when their son or daughter does not know if they are a “son” or a “daughter,” or if their son or daughter finds themselves attracted to members of the same sex. Parents need a safe space where they can share their stories, and listen and learn from one another, so that they can better know how to support their children.

According to a Sean McDowell video posted below, Alan Shlemon of Stand to Reason attended the conference and reported that some of the sessions were very helpful in creating that kind of safe space, which is so desperately needed today. Thankfully, there are more and more resources available today that can help parents be equipped to better deal with these issues in their parenting. One that I can recommend is the Center for Faith, Sexuality and Gender. I was able to convince just a few of the staff at my church to attend such a training event a few years ago. I wish I could have gotten a few more to attend, but a few is much better than nothing!

Andy Stanley’s most knee-jerk critics should keep these positive points in mind before piling on against Andy.

What Andy Stanley Gets Wrong

On the other hand, there are some other things that Andy Stanley got wrong. I will note one thing in particular. Some of the speakers at the Embrace the Journey conference affirm a traditional, historically orthodox view of marriage and gender identity. That is great. However, not all of the speakers do so.

According to Shlemon, two of the speakers were gay men already participating in what is commonly known today as same-sex marriages. While there was no overt attempt to try to argue against a traditional view of marriage by the speakers, promotional material written by such speakers at the conference was made available to participants, seeking to challenge the traditional view of marriage.

For example, one of the other speakers was David Gushee, a scholar in Christian ethics. I never knew or met Dr. Gushee, but I know of friends who knew him. While I was off-to-college out of town in the 1980’s, David Gushee attended the College of William and Mary in my home town, where he participated in the evangelical Christian community. David Gushee even served as the youth director at a conservative evangelical Baptist church in Williamsburg, where my Boy Scout troop met when I was a kid. After college, David Gushee pursued Christian ministry and scholarship, but he eventually completely changed his mind regarding the biblical definition of marriage, publishing a book chronicling his change of thinking in 2014, which received a lot of media attention.  It boggles my mind how a young college student in my hometown went onto become a nationally-known, influential figure. But there you go.

I actually agree with Dr. Gushee when he supports those same-sex attracted believers who have been mistreated by Christian institutions, when someone holds to a traditional sexual ethic, while still acknowledging their same-sex attraction. Such idiotic treatment of fellow Christians completely baffles me. But Dr. Gushee goes much further than that with his perspective contrary to historic Christian teachings.

Again, according to Shlemon, Dr. Gushee did not openly try to persuade the conference participants to adopt his point of view. But apparently his books were there…. and it only takes a few clicks on the Internet to find out what Dr. Gushee really thinks.

In a Sunday sermon, Andy Stanley offered a response to critics, noting that North Point Community Church still teaches an historic view of marriage as being between one man and one woman, while still defending hosting the Embracing the Journey conference. As he put it, the Embracing the Journey conference was not a theology conference. Rather, it was a pastoral conference.

Here is the problem which Andy Stanley faces. On the one hand, theologically, Andy Stanley appears to be saying that his church still affirms an historic orthodox view of Christian marriage in its teaching. So far, so good. At the same time, the church is hosting a conference where several of the speakers hold a position on marriage which is out of step with the official position of the church. This is confusing.

Was North Point Community Church offering a conference where the speakers were being “platformed” by the church? Or was the conference simply an invitation to “have a conversation?”

I am all for the idea of dialogue. I am all in support of having conversations with people with whom I disagree. Churches should not be afraid to sponsor such conversations. But there is a huge difference between “having a conversation” and actually giving a platform for a speaker, who holds views which are contrary to the teaching of the church. Even if the speaker is not expressing their contrary views at such a speaking event, it really lacks a sense of clarity and transparency as to what the purpose of the event actually is. The outrage over the Embracing the Journey conference, given such lack of clarity and transparency, is not surprising. It might prove to be very difficult for Andy Stanley to recover from this situation.

Where were the elders of North Point Community Church when the decision was made to host the Embracing the Journey conference? Did they know if they were simply sponsoring an event, “having the conversation?” Or did they know that they might be platforming controversial speakers, who have publicly let the world know that they hold theological positions which go against the teaching of the church?

Chances are, even if Andy Stanley and the elders of North Point had effectively communicated beforehand that the conference was a only a conversation with contrary voices, and not a platforming event, Andy Stanley would probably still have his critics. There is not much you can do about that.  However, when churches like North Point fail to follow sound-principles of discernment they only generate a sense of mistrust of their leaders.

The irony of all of this is that Andy Stanley is known for hosting a Leadership podcast. Well, with all due respect, the way the Embracing the Journey conference was handled was not good leadership.

Andy Stanley means well, but this is one specific area where Andy Stanley got things wrong.

Grace and Truth in the LGBTQ+ Conversation

Not all Christian leaders who hold to an historic, orthodox Christian sexual ethic offer the same type of assistance to Christian parents. Voices ranging from Rosaria Butterfield and Christopher Yuan to Gregory Coles and Wesley Hill handle the pastoral issues quite differently, but they all recognize the consistent witness of Scripture regarding the definition of marriage held throughout the centuries. I lean towards approaches advocated by authors like the latter Gregory Coles and Wesley Hill, as the former voices tend to view “same-sex orientation” as some type of modern myth, which is hard to comprehend why they see the issue that way. Nevertheless, regardless of the approach, it is important that churches handle LGBTQ+ concerns with both grace and truth. The controversy at Andy Stanley’s church is not the first time confusion like this has shaken Christians. Nor will it probably be the last. Nevertheless, we can do better.

Andy Stanley is a high-profile Christian leader in evangelicalism, pastoring one of the largest churches in the United States.  He is basically a household name in evangelial Christianity. If local churches can follow the positive trend set by Andy Stanley, to offer better resources to parents wrestling with LGBTQ+ concerns in their family, then this would be a very good demonstration of grace. However, there is a negative side. For if local churches do not sufficiently uphold truth with clarity, then more confusion will inevitably result, with the unintended consequence of making grace less accessible, to where it is needed most.

Discerning the nature of the conference is crucial; that is, was this an invitation to “have a conversation,” or was it a platforming event offering an implicit endorsement of views contrary to North Point’s stated position? Many have already concluded that this was a platforming event, and I can understand why. Many have already written off Andy Stanley as a false teacher.

I do wish more churches would provide conferences and support for parents of LGBTQ+ as North Point has tried to do. But sadly the confusion over the nature of the conference, and even some points raised by Andy towards the end of his sermon, will potentially discourage families who need help the most to avoid churches that are trying ways to stay true to Scripture while simultaneously creating those safe places for sharing deep personal struggles. Church leaders need to communicate clearly when they are platforming a speaker, and by association, the message they stand for, versus hosting a conversational dialogue with those who do not subscribe to the teachings aligned with that church. I have seen this scenario of confusion played out in other contexts that need not be discussed here.

Have a listen to the Sean McDowell and Alan Shlemon discussion, as well as Andy Stanley’s sermon, and decide for yourself what Andy Stanley got right, and got wrong.

 

For other Veracity blog posts on this topic see: 

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September 30, 2022

Divine Violence and the Character of God: by Claude Mariottini. A Review

By Clarke Morledge

I had not planned on reading a book on violence in the Bible this year. Then came the crisis in the Ukraine.

Those who know Russian history and Vladimir Putin will tell you that Putin’s reasoning behind the “special military operation” in Ukraine is an effort to revive that ancient vision of a Holy Orthodox Russia, Ukrainians and Russians together as one people, with Moscow at its ecclessial and political center.  Many devout Eastern Orthodox Christians are divided on this perspective, some being on one side and some on the other. But apparently Vladimir Putin accepts this narrative wholeheartedly, and he is willing to commit military boots on the ground to fulfill this vision.

Within a few weeks after the start of the war in the Ukraine, which began in February, 2022, the Russian Orthodox Patriarch Kirill gave a sermon that a number of analysts have interpreted as sanctioning Putin’s efforts to take over Ukraine. Kirill cited what he understood to be “a test of loyalty to [a] new world order… the world of excess consumption, the world of false ‘freedom’.” In particularly, Kirill singled out the Gay Pride parade, which has become a large annual event in the Ukraine, as that litmus test of loyalty. The annual June event was relocated from Kyiv to Poland this year, due to the war. In Patriarch Kirill’s words, “If humanity starts believing that sin is not a violation of God’s law, if humanity agrees that sin is one of the options for human behavior, then human civilization will end there.”

Reconciling conflicted branches of Christianity, as between the Ukrainian and Russian Orthodox churches, is something that every Christian should pray and strive for. Furthermore, many Christians like myself, including many Eastern Orthodox ones, will agree with the Russian Patriarch that same-sex marriage is contrary to God’s purposes, as set forward in the Bible. Division with the Christian church and the secularizing trend of the West is continuing to marginalize historically Christian views of morality, and Ukraine has been no exception. Christians will differ as to how we as believers should respond to the changing moral compass in the world of Western democracies, and how to respond politically. But does any of this serve as a justification for the violence we have been witnessing in the Ukraine for these many months?

Obviously, there are many other reasons why the Ukraine and Russia are at war with one another, that have nothing directly to do with the overtly theological justifications that I am addressing here. There are concerns about NATO expansion, corruption on both sides, etc. that complicate matters. I do not pretend to be a political analyst. But I am most concerned with how the Bible is used, or more properly speaking, misused as a pretense for justifying this war.

In an attempt to justify the war against the Ukraine, Russian President Vladimir Putin quoted from Jesus in John 15:13 for support: “…this is where the words from the Scriptures come to my mind: ‘There is no greater love than if someone gives his soul for his friends.’ ”  To make an appeal to Jesus, as an excuse for an ever expanding list of documented potential war crimes, particularly when many victims of Putin’s war are God-fearing Ukrainian Christians, is a perversion of the worst kind. Furthermore, the threat of a nuclear disaster looms large when Ukrainian power plants have been under the control of Russian forces, where Ukranian workers are under incredible stress and safety concerns are paramount.

When the “culture war” is transformed into a war with tanks and missiles, I can not think of a more dreadful misuse of the Bible than this. Instead of drawing nonbelievers to the Gospel, this type of thinking only repels people from Christianity. Thankfully, there are many, many Christians who are not convinced by President Putin’s application of Jesus’ teachings, and instead insist that the justification for war against Ukraine is a denial of the very Gospel itself.

Most American Protestant Evangelicals probably completely missed the schism in Eastern Orthodoxy back in 2018, when the Ukrainian Orthodox Church split from Russian Orthodoxy after being together for more than 300 years. But I never would have imagined that this theological crisis within Christianity would have precipitated Putin’s decision to wage war in Ukraine just four years later. It just goes to remind me that ideas really matter, especially theological ones.

Continue reading

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June 5, 2019

Andy Stanley and Jeff Durbin: An “Unbelievable” Discussion About Apologetics

By Clarke Morledge

Veracity readers will know that I have posted several times about Andy Stanley, pastor of one of the largest churches in America. Last month, my wife and I attended the Buckhead branch of Andy Stanley’s church in Atlanta, Georgia. Though pastor Stanley was not preaching that week, it was eye-opening to experience how Stanley’s NorthPoint community network of churches function, to reach a large city like Atlanta.

Andy Stanley has become rather “infamous” for coining the phrase that Christians should “unhitch” their faith from the Old Testament, a theme present in his bestselling book Irresistible. Despite what one might think of this controversy, Andy Stanley is more fundamentally known as a preacher who engages in what is called evidentialist apologetics, in an attempt to reach the non-believer with the Gospel. Evidentialist apologetics is a way of establishing common ground with a skeptical non-believer, seeking to share the Truth of Christ, by making an appeal to scientific and historical evidences that support the validity of the Christian faith. Some good examples of Christian apologists who make use of evidentialist apologetics include J. Warner Wallace, Frank Turek, Michael Licona, and the most well-known of them all, William Lane Craig.

In Andy Stanley’s particular approach, Andy Stanley says we should not start with the Bible, but rather start with the Resurrection of Jesus. We build our case for Christ by making a series of arguments in sequence, beginning with the reality of Christ’s resurrection, which leads to establishing the divine authority of Jesus, which then leads to the authority of the Bible, and its salvation message. The simplest way to put it is that it is the event of the Resurrection that gives us the text of the Bible, as we have it today, and not the other way around.

So, I was really excited to learn that Justin Brierley, of the British apologetics podcast, Unbelievable?, was able to get Andy Stanley together with presuppositionalist apologist Jeff Durbin, in order to discuss the nature of apologetics. In contrast with evidentialist apologetics, presuppositional apologetics takes a different approach, whereby you begin with the self-attestation of the truthfulness of Scripture first, and only then speak of the various doctrinal claims of the Christian faith, including Christ’s resurrection. Jeff Durbin himself is a pastor in Phoenix, Arizona, who has been mentored by perhaps the most influential presuppositional apologist, of a Calvinist persuasion, of our day, James White, of Alpha Omega Ministries, also headquartered in Phoenix, Arizona. Durbin, a popular YouTube Reformed apologist, has the unique distinction of being cast in several martial arts movies.

While I do believe that presuppositionalist apologetics does have its place, I am more of an evidentialist. Perhaps that is because that is how God reached me with the Gospel. I tend to differ with Durbin’s brand of apologetics, as presuppositionalist apologetics often begs the question: How do you build a case for Jesus, based on the Bible, when the non-believer does not believe the Bible to be trustworthy in the first place?

Sure, you could begin an evangelistic discussion by asking your listener to pretend that the Bible is reliable and true. But there is a big gap between pretending to believe the Bible, versus actually believing the evidence that exists, to support the authenticity of its message.

Even Christians often come to the Bible with their own negative judgments. An evidentialist approach seeks to build a bridge, that can help the skeptic or puzzled Christian to rethink their own reason for looking down at the Bible, or certain parts of the Bible. A presuppositional approach works great, if the person shares the same presuppositions. But a purely presuppositional approach tends to lead people to talk right past one another. In the worst cases, the presuppositional approach blows up bridges instead of building bridges, in our evangelistic or discipleship conversations.

A more troublesome question for presuppositional apologetics is this: Why start with the Bible? Why not the Book of Mormon? Or the Koran? Or the Bhagavad Gita?

Even if you start with the Bible, as opposed to starting with the evidence for the Resurrection, you still have to figure out which systematic view of the Bible you plan to go with: A Calvinist view? An Arminian view? A dispensationalist view? A charismatic view? Which one?

Andy Stanley’s particular approach does have some problems, as I have discussed before, so it is great to have someone like a Jeff Durbin, with whom I still have more disagreements with, on the other side of the debate, to challenge him. In the end, it is quite clear that there is no “one size fits all” approach to Christian apologetics that works for everyone. The discussion between Stanley and Durbin is great way to figure out where you stand, with respect to how you defend your faith, when engaging a skeptical non-believer. A riveting 90-minutes. This really is an amazing discussion!!

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January 26, 2019

Irresistible, by Andy Stanley, A Review

By Clarke Morledge

Irresistible: Reclaiming the New that Jesus Unleashed for the World. Pastor Andy Stanley overstates a central theme in his argument, but his critics should learn something from him as well.

A little backstory, as to why I decided to read this challenging book: I am not really the type of guy who would be naturally drawn to a pastor like Andy Stanley. At least, that is what I thought a few years ago.

Andy Stanley is the son of the well-known Atlanta pastor, Charles Stanley, who for years has been an example, par excellence, of classic, traditional Bible Belt preaching. When I think of the oft repeated phrase, “The Bible says… the Bible says…,” I think of Charles Stanley.

But I must confess. While he has had a profound, positive impact on the lives of many, and I am sure he is a wonderful man, Charles Stanley’s teaching never thrilled me personally.

About twenty years ago, I was teaching a Sunday school class on church history. I love studying and teaching church history. It helps deepen my love for God. The history of Christianity is often neglected in evangelical churches, so I was thankful for the privilege to try to fill in the gap, at our church. After a few weeks of examining how God has moved in the lives of influential Christians, across the centuries, one dear, elderly woman confronted me and asked, “It is all about history to you, isn’t it?”

Apparently, this woman did not understand why anyone in a Bible-believing church needed to waste their time learning about church history. I responded by saying something along the lines of, “Yes, I do believe that God works in history. Jesus did not just stop working in the world after the completion of the New Testament, and He continues to work in our world today.” This genuinely sweet woman then had that “I-have-no-clue-what-you-are-talking-about” look on her face.

*SIGH*.

The following week, the same woman walked into class, and handed me a whole set of resources from Charles Stanley’s InTouch Ministries to look at. I gulped. In particular, she pointed me to a cassette tape, with a title, something to the effect of why “the Bible alone is the Word of God.”

I got the message: Just stick with the Bible, and forget about this history stuff. “The Bible says” is good enough.

I thanked the woman, as she was kind and well-intentioned, and while I did eventually listen to the tape, and agreed with the teaching message, I was still flustered. For if this woman, who evidently was a big fan of Charles Stanley, was learning that we should disregard the lessons of God’s working over the past 2,000 years, since the closure of the New Testament, then I was not really impressed with what she was being taught.

My less-than-enthusiatic encounter with my less-than-enthusiastic church history student pretty much poisoned me. Frankly, Charles Stanley’s son, Andy, had never been on my radar, at all, until a few years ago. When I learned that Andy Stanley, a former youth pastor, now a mega-church pastor himself, started to rise in prominence, I really had no interest in learning anything from him either. Like father, like son, I supposed. Life is short, and since I can not read or listen to every resource article or sermon someone gives to me, I just left the ministries of the Stanleys at that.

That was until son Andy began making waves among his fellow Southern Baptist, conservative evangelical constituents. Though Andy Stanley continues to believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, he no longer thinks that the old evangelical mantra of “the Bible says” really works any more in an increasingly post-Christian society. We simply can not assume today that people believe the Bible.

That is a pretty big shift in message from the elder Stanley…. and it got my attention, because that is the world I live in.

My interest was sparked. Perhaps the younger pastor Stanley has something important to say after all. As it turns out, he does. I am chagrined to think that I never paid attention to this before. Continue reading

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July 17, 2018

Andy Stanley Responds to His Critics (Again)

By Clarke Morledge

Atlanta pastor Andy Stanley manages to stir up controversy every now and then, most recently with a sermon given earlier in 2018, about “unhitching” our faith from the Old Testament. Pastor Stanley was interviewed by apologist Dr. Michael Brown, on the Line of Fire radio program, where he was given the opportunity to respond to critics.

I may not totally jive with every statement Andy Stanley makes in his preaching, but I am totally on-board with his apologetics strategy. In sum, the message of the Christian faith, is driven first and foremost by an event, and not a text. We begin not with a perfect Bible, but rather, with the evidence of the Resurrection of Jesus. Some of the friends in my church call this the “Easter Effect,” whereby almost the entire Roman Empire, in the first centuries of the church, was converted to Christianity on the basis of the claim of the Risen Jesus. We get our understanding of the Bible’s authority from the Risen Jesus, and not vice-versa.

For if Jesus never rose from the dead, our confidence in the Bible means absolutely nothing. But because Jesus did rise from the dead, the Bible comes to us as God’s Word, and means everything to the follower of Jesus.

In other words, it is not enough to say, “the Bible says it, I believe, and that settles it.” Rather, “I believe the Bible, because it is true.” There is a big difference.

Give it a listen, and let me know what you think. Do you think I am wrong about this? Is Andy Stanley on target, or is he veering off the mark? Veracity has covered Andy Stanley before on several occasions (#1, #2, #3). The audio starts about 20 seconds in.

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